War Liberal

The overwhelming majority of the looters that I saw on television weren't trying to survive or get food and supplies for their subsistence. It was an out-and-out "grab while the grabbings good." Not to sound insensitive, although I know I will, the people who were left in N.O. are there by choice--through choices made not to evacuate or choices made in their lives which put them in a situation where they were left exposed. I have sympathy for them, but they ultimately have to bear some responsibility for their plight, and we need to not blame society or the government.

Mac, the coverage I've been watching showed the police actually assisting people to "loot" food, water, and medical supplies from a Walgreen's. It's the looting of jewelry, electronics, and racks of clothing and tennis shoes they're objecting to. Today, somebody shot at a military helicopter that was attempting to assist in the evacuation effort. I'm hearing stories about a nurse who was mugged when she stepped outside the hospital for a smoke break, about people trying to get back into town who are having their vehicles carjacked on I-10. The driver of a van taking supplies to a nursing home full of trapped elderly residents had the van and supplies taken at gunpoint. I realize these folks are desperate, disaffected, whatever, but it really pisses me off that even when they reopen the city, my mama is too afraid of being shot to go back and try to collect whatever she can salvage from what may or may not be left of her house.

VodkaPundit had one about a riotous crowd at the Children's Hospital. I understand that the facility that had its van jacked has also closed. My favorite, though, was the "Its everybody's store!" quote.

I dunno, though, maybe they were going to sell the plasma teevees. I hear the fencing is really good these days.

we need to not blame society or the government

You know, I'm not blaming the government but as a card carrying liberal I do believe that part of the government's job is to protect and provide assistance for its citzens in time of need, whether it be a terrorist attack or a natural disaster. Right now it doesn't look like we've done too good of a job of that so far. Of course this is an unprecedented situation and that has to be taken into account.

the government's job is to protect and provide assistance for its citzens in time of need...

Yes, I've been wondering: what percentage of the National Guard is actually available right now to guard the nation?

"the people who were left in N.O. are there by choice--through choices made not to evacuate or choices made in their lives which put them in a situation where they were left exposed."

There's good libertarian/Republican thought. You're poor because you f'ed up in your life choices.

You're right, Woody. You are insensitive.

In fairness to Woody, a choice to live in New Orleans is a risky one. And many people have made it consciously. I feel for them, they need to be helped much more than they are right now. On the flip side, it should also be acknowledged many people are there because their lives put them there rather than them putting their lives there (if that makes any sense at all). This is not, however, the time for "tough love". That is for after, when people have to decide whether or not to go back and rebuild. We wanted and needed people to go back to Manhattan (yet another risky place to live in the current global climate). Do we want and need people to go back to New Orleans? Yes, but I don't know how much. The city should come back, of course. It is important to our economy, but the extent to which that is done and what areas may be best left unpopulated is going to be a difficult choice. Yes, these are things that we should be thinking about now... even though it probably also seems insensitive. I'm going to watch a baseball game tonight and enjoy it, and lots of other people will do something similar. We can afford to think about these things now even though there are far more important things to deal with immediately.

CNN had footage of a female police officer looting a Wal-Mart she was supposed to be protecting. She had a shopping cart full of what looked like shoe boxes. When the CNN reporter challenged her, she told him he had to leave. She kept turning her face away from the camera, but she was definitely in uniform. If this is the example the police are providing, why are they surprised that others are following their lead?

There are certainly criminals in New Orleans who are taking advantage of this situation, but considering how unprepared our disaster response teams appear to be, I don't know how we can blame poor people because they didn't make provisions for the possibility of a devastating hurricane and flood. They were probably more worried about the day to day need to feed their families and keep rooves over their heads.

I'm not really insensitive. I genuinely hurt for these people. I was just stepping back and making an observation--not a judgement, and it was said only in response to Mac's last sentence. Except for the kids, it's probably accurate. As I watched coverage of the victims on TV at lunch today, I felt guilty for even having a sandwich when some of them haven't had food or water for four days. Regarding gov't actions, whatever is being done could be done better, just like everything that we do. However, I don't believe that anyone is only half-trying. It's different being on the field versus sitting in the stands.

By that standard, everybody but children is responsible for what happens to them. Hey, the city you were born in and lived in all your life was destroyed? You should have moved! Pull up stakes, leave everything you know, and live your life somewhere else which might be destroyed by something else anyway.

The President's Press Secretary got up in front of the White House press corps and said, essentially, that if you didn't evacuate you deserve what happened to you. Presumably everyone should have left for their winter homes.

Mac: "By that standard, everybody but children is responsible for what happens to them."

Yeah, for the most part, and I might include a lot of the elderly or disabled. Those stranded didn't bring the hurricane, but they couldn't get out of town for reasons known best to them--maybe because of lack of concern or laziness, but most likely because of money. How many of those stranded adults dropped out of high school, how many failed to develop marketable skills, how many are on drugs or alcohol, etc.--all of which contributed to poverty and being unable to afford to leave town? More importantly, how many failed to plan for emergencies?

Mac, I'm not saying these things to sound like a jerk or upset your readers, because the reasons aren't important to me, especially at this time. I'm simply responding to a question that you made. Bottom line--all of us are where we are in large part because of choices we made in life. People need to take more individual responsibility rather than depending on government and blaming society.

A lot of the readers may not want to admit it, but personal responsibility matters. Fortunately, when it's not applied, there are plenty of others, including me, who care and want to help. In addition, each of us may need help sometimes ourselves.

Now, no one call me names, because you don't know me. I'm just presenting a viewpoint.

People need to take more individual responsibility rather than depending on government and blaming society.

Look, I'm not saying that this isn't true, I'm just saying that in time of a disaster like this, it's irrelevant. A government/society has an obligation to its citizens/members in emergencies like this and if the response is inadequate then appropriate criticsm is entirely justifiable.

Just curious, did you offer up this same argument when the World Trade Center was bombed? No? Why not?

Since, like Woody says, nobody knows me, I will stick my neck out here and say that yes, I thought there was a certain hubris in building 100+ story buildings in the first place. Venice, for example, and to a lesser extent New Orleans, show this same kind of noble yet foolhardy human folly. By definition, anything men build is meant to defy the laws of nature. If there is a continuum with a simple roof meant to keep the rain out at one end, then housing a million people in a bowl-shaped city below sea level maintained by a complicated system of pumps might be rather near the other. (Of course, it works in Amsterdam.)

The criminal destruction of the wetlands that at least helped to buffer the whole system is a whole other discussion.

I don't think Woody is suggesting that we make people do penance for having dared to live in New Orleans before we hand them their blanket and MRE. But if we're talking about criminal looters, the "roving armed gangs" that have been reported on since Mac's first post, I don't think anybody here is arguing for sympathy for them or government obligation towards them.

No, I don't have sympathy for roving armed gangs. I'm not surprised that people are becoming bandits, though.

What I object to is (1) the broad brush of "looters" for everyone who doesn't follow the codes of civilized purchase that are inoperable in New Orleans, and (2) the government diverting police and guardsmen from rescue and relief work to protect property that is lost anyway.

Michael, you and I agree that this isn't the time to tell someone to live with the consequences of his decisions. Remember, I only answered a question posed, although it could have been rhetorical.

I didn't associate personal responsibility with the WTC bombing for which those people had no warning and no options. That would be like telling a guy who was struck by lightning that he shouldn't have been standing on that spot.

I will say that I am very, very disappointed in the response to the people who need help. I expected thousands of helpers setting up distribution points and providing immediate help with food and facilities. Almost as a joke but also somewhat seriously, if this is the best that government can do, then we need to take the same steps that we did in Iraq--turn the job over to Haliburton. (I bet you really like that idea.) Anyway, I suspect that the would do a better job.

Michele Malkin seems to think that we should turn it over to Live Aid.

I'm trying not to play politics with this, but I've slipped a couple of times. It's hard, when the Republicans control the entire government and its efforts are so horrible. I'm not surprised that the Louisiana government effort has sucked; those guys are like the Alabama government without the sense of purpose. But I do expect better of the Feds. And now the President is saying that they're not doing enough, and Congress is acting. It took far too long, and I'm extremely worried; if we can't get together for a disaster we knew was going to happen a week in advance, what's going to happen after a major terrorist attack? Or the Big One on the West Coast?

A friend who has done a lot of work for the Red Cross tried to explain why the relief efforts have been so apparently slipshod. The gist of what he was saying was that none of the immediate staging they are trained to set up was possible given the condition of the roads going in. I thought I-10 was intact from Baton Rouge but apparently there was a portion that was unnavigable.

2. The people in question are for the most part poor and did not have the means to evacuate. Many don't have cars, or don't have cars that could make a 200 mile trip to safety. The buses were closed. Oh, and hotel rooms are expensive.

Where were the buses? Hundreds of school buses were left parked and flooded out. The public buses were never used to help evacuate. New Orleans abandoned its citizens and left them to die. Where was their preparation? The mayor simply said "get out" and left the public to fend for theirselves.