War Liberal

I'm again in the odd position of defending Dean from what I think are spurious charges, specifically from Kerry, even though I don't like Dean and am quite happy to see Kerry beating him as decisively as he is thus far.

Let's look at some of the excerpts from that Kerry campaign release Alex links to from a month ago about Dean and Israel:

Dean yesterday told a New Hampshire audience “the only way to have a Jewish democracy is to get out of the West Bank at some point because otherwise, you have a democracy; it's not a Jewish state. It's a Jewish state, it's not a democracy.”

Every candidate who aspires to be president should know that Israel is a democracy and our closest ally in the region. Unfortunately, Howard Dean is the only candidate who seems to be committed to retreating from this relationship.

This is a clownish way to spin what Dean said. Everybody--repeat, everybody--in Israel, right-wing, left-wing, you name it, knows that Israel cannot remain in the current situation forever as both a majority Jewish state and a democracy, since there's already about as many Arabs living in the entire land of Israel as there are Jews. There's nothing controversial at all about saying this, and the various "unilateral steps" being bandied about by Sharon and his Likud colleagues are a clear acknowledgement of this fact.

More from the Kerry campaign release:

Dean has previously said that we should take an “even handed” approach to the conflict, force Israel to remove “enormous numbers of settlements,” called Hamas “soldiers,” and recently shocked Florida Democratic activists when he said would work to strengthen “moderates’ in the Islamic world."

On the first point, Dean already back-tracked and said that he wouldn't use the term "even-handed" again, having been made aware of how loaded a term it is (i.e. Arabs using it to urge the US to adopt policies that would allow for the elimination of Israel). So, a legitimate criticism, but one that Dean has addressed.

The last three points range from misleading to ridiculous. The various proposals/plans that happened under Clinton, like the Camp David negotiations and the Clinton "bridging proposals" of Dec. 2000, would require Israel to evacuate, at a minimum, dozens and dozens of settlements, probably a lot more than that. Calling it an "enormous" number is barely an exaggeration, if at all. About Dean calling Hamas members soldiers, I already dealt with this in a previous thread: Dean made that analogy in the process of DEFENDING Israel's policy of targeted assassinations against terrorists. And the last point, about "strengthening moderates in the Islamic world"--who did this shock? What the hell are they talking about? Bush and advisors say this sort of thing all the time.

Jimmy Carter is anti Israel???

Alex, I know as much about the Israeli/Arab conflict as anyone who posts on blogs, so your attempts to educate me are unnecessary. We can disagree on certain things--I'm not crazy about some of the things that Carter says/has said about Israel, but I also don't think he's all that unfair in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, this was supposed to be about Dean, not Carter. As you yourself mentioned in the post, Kerry has identified Carter as a potential envoy, so it's not just Dean who has that association on this issue. And I note that you responded to none of the specific points I made about why Dean *in particular* should be seen as anti-Israel. Yes, he wants Israel to abandon settlements and withdraw from land--as has every US administration since 1967, including the current one.

Be nice, you two.

Alex, I don't think you have to tell Haggai to read Debka. He's well informed, really. The only question is how seriously you take them...

I like to think that part of the reason for my being well-informed is that I *don't* read Debka :)

"And to me the worst people in all this are the Jews like you & half my friends who stand by and condone the sickening Muslim behavior and speeches towards Jews and towards Israel."

I'll restrict myself to pointing this out as a reply.

Israel can remain both a democracy and a Jewish state. All it has to do with the Palestinians is what America did to the American natives.

You may say that's not democratic, but America is still more democratic than almost any other nation, despite the "black mark" on its record. And, quite frankly, the American settlers probably felt the same way as the Israeli settlers do... surrounded by an irredemably murderous culture that has already annihilated several villages, constantly attacked more, picked off women and children without the slightest remorse, and repeatedly announced that they would delight in murdering every settler in the entire nation, even though the natives sold them the land they settled on in the first place. (Not our fault they sold their land for beads.) The only way peace could be made was by either the American settlers giving up and dying, or the natives being crushed and ending up living only at the mercy of the settlers. Personally, given the results of their experimentation in self-rule, I'm glad they chose the former. We wouldn't have anything even vaguely resembling a "free world" if it weren't for that.

Only after the natives were destroyed could anyone afford the luxury of feeling guilty about how we treated them. The settlers did horrible things, but sometimes doing horrible things is the only way to survive.

I meant the settlers chose the latter, of course.

Three years ago, I never would have thought I could ever advocate another "Trail of Tears," but it looks like the options are either transfer, genocide, or being exterminated. Everything else has been tried in Israel, except the security wall, and that's likely to fail too considering how many NGOs and even nations aren't the slightest bit shy about supporting Palestinian efforts to penetrate it.

I agree with Haggai on Debka. It's the blind archer of the news media, and the times they've managed to hit their mark by pure luck doesn't make up for all the spectators they've hit while firing randomly.

Alex, I have to agree with Haggai here. Debka has its uses, but a lot of what they report is simply rumor and turns out to be false. And he's hardly a hard-left Israeli. Read the link he provided to his coverage of the divestment conference.

I am working to israel security by greenuich prec.

I am working to israel security by greenuich prec.